News

Ian German - 09 February 2010

It's a shame, though they do say that those who sup with the devil, etc .......

I'm not totally familiar with CW's customer base but it sounds as if too many eggs were in the PM basket?

Tin Pot PR - 09 February 2010

Bad news is coming thick and fast in 2010. I hope that the staff receive their pay and can find alternative employment in due course.

2010 looks like being tougher than 2009; is that a fair outlook?

Jon Fennell - 09 February 2010

Ian, looks to be about right, PM works ok in a sensible mix, but not to the point of naming the price. Having said that is it all PM's fault, so many factors involved in the current mess and many (printers) sell on price because thats all a lot of clients are interested in. With so much competition for not enough work, the trade has lost sight of why its in business.

Now here's one to ponder, if as is expected IPEX is going to be full of margin increasing mechanisation (as normal), is the investment really whats needed?. I guess the answer to this is how many people can be lost from the wage bill. The issue with all this is almost throwing good money after bad, if capacity was somewhere close to parity it makes sense.

But with the instability and suicidal tendencies, innovation such as Cut-Star, CTP it could end up giving away the advantage to to feed itself and then add further to the capacity problem. I think if printers could be honest with themselves and reverse the volume thought, they could cut a shift and work on double days using the 3rd for o/t if needed. It would work for some.

If print is to carry on looking out for technology advantage, it should at least ask itself 'for who's benefit'.     

print geek - 09 February 2010

Has anyone heard which suppliers got hit??

Did anyone see this one coming??

Jon Fennell - 09 February 2010

[quote user="Tin Pot PR"]

Bad news is coming thick and fast in 2010. I hope that the staff receive their pay and can find alternative employment in due course. 2010 looks like being tougher than 2009; is that a fair outlook?

[/quote]Certainly not going to be easy, its disconcerting that there isn't that much business being forward planned and is reactive rather than pro-active. I think prints in a strange place, certainly not one its seen before and its being affected by clients trying out alternative media. Email is taking a toll and even TV and Press is within reach of many who wouldn't have gone there before. Media has become cheap (just like print) due to the increases in available airtime across terrestrial, satellite and cable networks, with the amount of life style channels clients can ''target'' audience, which for some is appealing, but its not measureable.

Email is (for now) cheap, IMO the results aren't that good and decent data is getting hard to get hold of. Audiences are also being turned off due to frequency and to much of the same old same old. If the UK follows the US trend there is a return to more traditional routes with a mix. Its also interesting that the americans have become increasingly turned off by over targetted mail and use of loyalty cards, I think that trend is already kicking here.

So after all that yes 2010 is looking to be tough, can't see much before September and more a gut feeling, a lot will be decided by the next review figures, I think there is a need for a more positive turn from recession than .1% to convice clients to return to increasing spending or coming away from what could little more than maintenance of revenues.

Darrel Crowley - 09 February 2010

Shame to hear about CW They had a very long history in print. Interesting to hear them cite Print Management being the main cause of their problems, as they ran their own arm of print management with CW Plus? I know they relied on their old public sector contracts, which counted for a large part of their turnover - could be one of the reasons for the demise.

print geek - 09 February 2010

It is a shame to hear about any printer going bust - but the industry does need a good clear out in order to bring a bit more balance back to the equation and help the ones that are left hopefully achieve better margins etc

Penny Pincher - 09 February 2010

It is a real shame, but I am not so sure that PM companies can be blamed for this - doesn't look too hot there either if this cheerful article is anything to go by http://www.printweek.com/indepth/Features/980053/Its-gone-quiet-PM/.

Going one step up the food chain to look at a different scenario: if a PM company going bust started blaming its clients for reduced margins and rebates, would suppliers such as this benefit by picking up that business and getting away with a better deal? I really don't think so - let's get real people, PM or not PM, the economy is hitting this sector hard.

mark smith - 09 February 2010

Print has several problems.......

this year will be a terrible year for the UK in general...rising inflation, interest rates will rise this year upto 1% and the Government \(whichever flavour) is going to have to get rid of costs \(people & services)

Print in general is still going to decline, there are just so many channels to publish info...so as fast as printers go bust, volumes will decline further and more printers will go bust...etc,etc..

Margins will not come back easily as the new technology will push margins\(CD roms - where your product can be shown working and downloads etc...) formwork will all be online...

No need for old fashioned print \(certainly nowhere near present volumes...perhaps only 20% of present volumes in the next 5 years...any thoughts?

What does that do to your business plan??

mark smith - 09 February 2010

i meant to say interest rate rises of 1% \(ontop of present rate)

Jon Fennell - 09 February 2010

Mark, not so sure I would go that far, there are some predictions of growth by 3.9% that I read somewhere in 2011 and a modest 1.5% this year, as to whether this is right who knows.

I believe that print has to do something for itself and currently we as a trade are not doing enough. For instance the take up and promotion of Twosides has to increase. Some have the opinion that this is for the benefit of the paper guys, but this view is shortsighted and dumb. We need a good news message and we should all promote that.

While companies such as Barclaycard promote the use of online statement and literature in the name of saving the planet, the message the wider public is reading is flawed and incorrect, the perception of print and mail not being environmentally friendly is a real thing and has been adopted because thats how it is. We know it isn't but what have we done about it?.

What we should do is send out information every time we see these messages and request that policy is reviewed and changed or reworded. It too much to hope that the general public connect the planting of trees with the use of printed materials. What we should want to think is use paper and 3 new trees will be planted for everyone that gets cut down, this is good for us as new trees remove more CO.

We should also be pushing the power used message, and any other that tips over the misconceptions currently held.

mark smith - 09 February 2010

I agree print has 'strong areas' that can enhance produces and promotions..and will have a position in the 'information marketplace' just unsure about the percentage!

All ideas to promote print can only help!

Bryn Oakley - 09 February 2010

I feel for CW though do not know them. All those years of hard work gone. All that experience just inflating the dole queue, what a waste.

I agree totally with you Jon, in fact I have been bleating on about photosynthesis, tree planting, more oxygen, and less CO2 \(by people using MORE paper, not less) for ages. In fact I have been quoted several times lately in the pages of Printweek. I still get zilch reaction from our trade!

The trouble is, we need to create a giant move forwards to promote print and paper use and overturn the ill-informed 'save a tree' brigade. As I said in Printweek recently, the greatest threat in 2010 is Global Warming, as everyone sees saving paper as a way of saving the planet. How wrong they are! We need to create a movement to educate or remind people that trees are part of our saviour, and we all know that trees are planted especially for paper making. Less paper = less trees planted - forever! less trees means less photosynthesis, more CO2 less oxygen, more holes in the Ozone Layer as a result. I also said that our greatest opportunity in 2010 was - you've guessed it - Global warming! Yes we need to use this story to make people more aware of where paper comes from, and that it is not a sackable offence to print emails, or send out a colour brochure!

I would love to be involved in the creation and marketing of such a campaign, but would need total support from within the trade and help from the paper makers and merchants too.

The other thing to get across is that I understand paper actually forms a good breeding ground for the right bacteria to grow in landfill sites, and thus help to break down more speedily the other, less attractive things that are dumped in landfill.

Come on the print industry, wake up! It won't happen on its own you know, no matter how long you wait!

Then perhaps more companies like CW with their vast experience won't perish.

Come on everyone, lets say it together \(because we're worth it!):

PRINT IS GOOD FOR THE PLANET AND THE ENVIRONMENT!

So, lets get on with promoting it as a body of like-minded people instead of licking our ever-opening wounds like the demise of CW!

Bryn Oakley

Astra Printing Group

Cullompton

Devon

EX15 1AP

Bryn Oakley - 09 February 2010

Helen, as a writer for Printweek, surely you can persuade your editor to give us a page to promote this? It has to be a good enough story surely?

Jon Fennell - 09 February 2010

Bryn, now here's the thing I guess in a way it shows something about online. Two Sides have been advertising on this site for a few weeks, (blue flash with the word Win) yet there have been no comments and I wonder if it has driven any printers to join.

BPIF are supporting them as well BUT BPIF are only promoting to membership. Talking with printers few are aware of its existence, yet the information given along research is positive and useful, there are even letter templates to send to corporate asking them not to use the paper is bad message.  

Its shortcoming I guess is, for people who don't want to spend time browsing the information, there is no fast fact page, something short and snappy which encourages further reading. Having said the resource is good and they have spent sometime making the site what it is. Its a great shame that because it carries NAPM (they funded start up) printers seem to assume its a paper industry plug, the point is we print on paper and rely on each other. Can we afford to even think us and them?

CW readers apologies for swinging off topic. 

'Not A Doctor' (NDCT) - 09 February 2010

Back to CW Print ....

Here's a quote from this thread: http://www.printweek.com/InDepth/news/981532/Will-print-learn-teach-itself/

by Bruce Carter Director of continuous improvement, CW Print

DD: If that's the case, it sounds like there is a need for the old-fashioned apprenticeships. Why don't they really exist anymore?

Bruce Carter: That's partly because we're no longer a craft industry. We're a commodity and our workforce is transient. We still need levels of competency, but we only need a basic level that we can build on

Hmmmm - can't agree with that Bruce (or your uninformed question Daryl). You're only a commodity if you're chucking print out at silly prices to print farmers Print Managers

'Not A Doctor' (NDCT) - 09 February 2010

Oh dear - here are a few more pearls of wisdom from our Bruce:

BC: That's not just on the shop floor, but also on the management side. We all have MIS. Years ago we employed people who knew the process skills for costs and the capabilities of the press. Now you just put all that into an MIS and it comes up with a price. You don't need the skills because the MIS does it. The skills we need to focus on today are strategic management.

BC: As an industry, I don't consider print to be any different to farming, food manufacturing or whatever. We need to attract competent or skilled people. With basic competency, you don't need industry-specific training. You don't need colleges - you need someone who understands computers, man management and strategic finance. You are just moving those skills across industries.

BC: I think it's brilliant what Proskills is trying to do, but my criticism is that the majority of printers employ 10 people or fewer and those companies just don't have the HR structure to engage with training.

BC: Proskills isn't doing anything wrong, it's just the nature of the industry. What it boils down to is that you can't centralise a de-centralised industry like print and, unfortunately, I can't see that changing any time soon.

[edit]

deviated vocals - 10 February 2010

Great stuff again NDCT

I see what hes getting at and we need to have some lower level skill people in place but its only the customers perception print is a commodity. you still need to produce a bespoke job.

any company, even shelling peanuts that thinks its staff can come and go without any pain is nutty (boom boom)

even if its just showing them were the bogs are you still need to invest time and money.

he may be right in picking some of the additional skills that our industry requires but better to have them and industry or job specific knowlegde rather than ex manager of tescos running the factory floor.

he must have been pretty sure he was right to broadcast so loudly, oops!

'Not A Doctor' (NDCT) - 10 February 2010

Thanks dv.

Unexpectedly, for the last two days I found myself answering the phones, dealing directly with customers - something I haven't done for years. Surprisingly, nothing has changed - it felt just like it did twenty-odd years ago. (In fact I even got a little kick out of having to phone up ???????? and order 500$ of SRA3 CFB yellow - that should have them scrambling through the orders to find out who NDCT is....).

I tossed a few hundred A2 posters out to a customer at £150 without bothering to switch on the MIS system and then dis-owned a colleague's cheap price for 9000 stickers. How accurate was I ?  Who knows. But I know the A2 posters will fly through without a hitch whereas the stickers could have us b*ggering about for hours.

Here's a tip Bruce: the MIS is the ruination of businesses. Real experience means you can sniff the easy jobs out a mile off and spot the b&st&rds before the customer has even finished explaining them to you. But unfortunately your non-industry people with the transferable skills won't have a prayer of understanding any of that. The first you'll know about it is when some poor s0d from the shop-floor comes to you in tears screaming "Who the hell quoted this?"

deviated vocals - 10 February 2010

to be fair we have driven our business by using an inhouse mis way better(and costlier unfortunatly) then any off the shelf,

but the key is to automate what can be shoved thru and to free up good people to deal with the buggerations.

cause buggerations and consternations there will be..... commodity or not.

Mike Prior - 10 February 2010

Lot of interesting links and discussions on this one, I run a Print Management company that has been trading successfully since 1985, and we believe we pay a fair price for the services received. We buy the paper direct from the merchant so the costs incurred by the printer/finisher are only time and labour and consumables.

As a PM company we can take on any product and we turn no potential client away, smallest job 100,000 printed paper clips sourced in the Netherlands, largest job 5 million raffle tickets for a National charity.

We will give a price for any article of print from business cards to books and we believe the demise of the trade is partly due to the lack of enthusiasm to impress potential clients.

Some companies have got too large and have lost sight of what print is, which is a specialist supplier of the printed word, to remind ourselves of this we have an often reproduced framed document in a prominent position in our office which reads:

THIS IS A PRINTING OFFICE

Crossroads of Civilisation.

Refuge of all the arts against the ravages of time.

Armoury of fearless truth against whispering rumour.

Incessant trumpet of trade.

From this place words may fly abroad.

Not to perish on waves of sound.

Not to vary with the writer's hand.

But fixed in time having been verified in proof.

Friend - you stand on sacred ground.

THIS IS A PRINTING OFFICE.

Excuses please for that, I am quite old, and when I signed my indenture in 1961, to be a hot metal compositior, my master at the time said "Michael, you are joining the printing industry, you will be seen as a pillar of working society and you will have a job for life"

Well he was correct about the last seven words of that statement.

MP

JEFF THOMAS - 10 February 2010

Being relatively small we only deal with about 5-10 quotes a day which we can handle but were we to be asked to do say 20+ quotes a day then we would either need to employ another person, with all the costs that this brings or install an MIS system, which is expensive but more of a one off cost.

I think when you get to a certain size a MIS system is a must as you need to know what the cost of a job and "gut feeling" will not suffice.

On another note I agree with much of what BC says as it is based on our experience. Whether we like it or not print has now become a commodity and the challenge is to find clients who see the bigger picture and don't buy on price alone. Unfortunately there are very few "professional" buyers out there now and most just go on price as that is the only thing that concerns them or in their eyes can really differentiate between companies. Again this may only apply to the lower end of the market that we are in but I suspect not. I recently went to the Printweek seminar and the lack of knowledge from the Boden print buyer, who has a huge print budget, regarding digital print was astounding.

JT

Mike Prior - 10 February 2010

Well JT I guess the print buyer from Boden hadn't spent 6 years learning the business before he even achieved the basic wage for the job, which was the norm for apprentices in the 60's and 70's. I spent time in every department of complete book printing company learning the trade as well as 5 years at college on day release, before I was let loose on paying customers work.

John Bradley - 10 February 2010

Times are hard and blame for the state of our industry can be pointed in lots of different directions, it is not just our industry that is suffering monumentally but industry in general in the UK and Europe.

I believe Print does have a future in lots of areas. Things have changed massively in my 20 years in this industry but one thing that has not is greed.

If the end client actually dealt directly with the Printer they would find that the actual cost of a printed item could be as much as 50% less than what they are actually paying. Take off the premiums that Print Management Companies add on, take off Advertising and Marketing Agency Mark ups, take of Design Company mark ups, then all of a sudden the printed matter becomes a cost effective, sustainable, Greener alternative to other mediums. If all of the hangers on stopped adding their slice to the print pie we would all be better off. Time to change our route to sales printers out there, time to sell direct!

Maybe this is the time for the Worm to turn.

The Mighty Wind - 10 February 2010

[quote user="Mike Prior"]my master at the time said "Michael, you are joining the printing industry, you will be seen as a pillar of working society and you will have a job for life"[/quote] 

This sounds similiar to my initiation as a jedi Knight in the seventies

Mike Prior - 10 February 2010

Ah yes John, but having been in the trade for 49 years, I have worked in printers who turned away prospective clients because the type of work the potential client was offering did not 'fit' the pattern of work that the printer was looking to produce.

In it's extreme a sales director of a large B1 colour house would have to be a bold man to send one of his rep's 50 miles down the motorway to pick up an enquiry for a possible order for a business card from an unknown person. BUT that initial meeting could turn into a huge brochure.

As a PM company we follow up every enquiry then pitch the enquiry to the printer most suited for that particular project, and in our experience if you have not got back to the client with a firm price in writing within 4 hours you may as well not bother, because others will.

Darren Mitchell - 10 February 2010

I feel that our industry is one of the best industries to be a part of in the UK. Look at our history and the way that the industry we are a part of has educated the human race. It is exciting and never a day goes past when I am not set a new problem to try and solve for my clients.

Having said that, I cannot understand the apathy of so many companies that turn work away from potential clients. We must remember that all companies start of small, and despite a minority of unscrupulous buyers, if you give a good service and help out a client they will be as loyal as they possibly can be to you.

There is so much distain out there for PM companies by printers, but we are only here due to your aforementioned apathy. I, like Mike Prior, do not shy away from any inquiry put to us. We are here to try to make our buyers lives easier, to try and take some of the pressure off our clients and let them concentrate on the other work issues they have. Who doesn't want an easier life? We look on ourselves as a free PA to our clients, available anytime, even if just for some advice. I have found that the majority of printing companies simply don't offer this level of service. In mitigation to this comment, I would say rightly so. They are manufacturers and should concentrate on doing that, leave the servicing of the clients that they poopoo to us.

Think of it this way. It has been reported \(on this forum) that the average net return on sale for printers is around 1.5%. If you employ a sales person doing £250K/year, and his total remuneration package is circa £45-50k/year \(including wages, NI, car, laptop, expenses etc), you, as a company are getting £3750.00 net for his gainful employment, over a full year!!!!! £3750.00 for all the hassle that is involved in his employment, you must be mad.

If you get a job in from a PM company \(at a fair price) as we do with our suppliers \(we only have 5, we do not use the whole industry and play one off against the other, creating a Dutch auction), and you do your due diligence into the PM company. Then not only should you still achieve your 1.5% net return, but you also save on wages and the plethora of other costs that are involved with an employee.

So stop with the PM bashing, there is still enough meat on the bone for us all to share. We are all in the same boat. If you do not want a PM's work at the price that you are offering, then more fool you for your pricing structure. Fair PM companies are just as good a client as any other.

The Mighty Wind - 10 February 2010

 I agree Darren Printers are crap at customer service.........only yesterday i had to beat up a customer for asking for a quote for work the cheeky barsteward. i for one am very glad that PM company's have spotted this gap in the market for the last 6000 years and made the client and my life easier. Prior to having PM as a client I had to actually deal with a client as a client christ what a nightmare that was............at least now the industry is in better shape for future generations

Darren Mitchell - 10 February 2010

TMW - ouch! Hit a nerve? Firstly, isn't it the point that the PM Company that you do work for is a client, just like any other and you should be 'actually dealing with that client as a client', not worrying who he does works for? Secondly, in the majority of cases, not all, \(I am assuming you are being sarcy) the industry is in the shape it is in and does not look too bright for future generations, due to poor company management and direction. I include PM companies in this as well. But not due to PM companies catering for client's needs that are not being met by printers themselves. It is an argument that you can't win, if there was not a gap in the market then PM companies would not be in existence.

Mike Prior - 10 February 2010

In the olden days when I worked for the master, the clients would come to your door, the master would look up at them over his half glasses in a disdainful way, brush the snuff off his waistcoat and greet them with a "YES, WHAT DO YOU WANT" in that "How dare you enter my print factory mode" . I, like others were guilty of that, (apart for the snuff), and still to this day I have the rubber stamp and ink pad in my drawer, that I used to stamp each piece of artwork with the chapel number, to prove that the work originated from a recognised union source. Then someone invented the micro-chip and it all went to pot!

Darrel Crowley - 10 February 2010

[quote user="Mike Prior"]In the olden days when I worked for the master, the clients would come to your door, the master would look up at them over his half glasses in a disdainful way, brush the snuff off his waistcoat and greet them with a "YES, WHAT DO YOU WANT" in that "How dare you enter my print factory mode" . I, like others were guilty of that, (apart for the snuff), and still to this day I have the rubber stamp and ink pad in my drawer, that I used to stamp each piece of artwork with the chapel number, to prove that the work originated from a recognised union source. Then someone invented the micro-chip and it all went to pot![/quote]

I can remember an occasion when the FOC refused to allow a colleague to move a typewriter from a desk, because they wasn't a member of the NGA. He had to wait an hour until a designated member arrived to shift it.

Darren Mitchell - 10 February 2010

Ahh, halcyon days. There have been very few inventions that in the long run have made life easier. It may seem that way, but in reality they just make life faster and faster and more hectic, not any easier. Bit of a generalisation, but you get my drift.

The Mighty Wind - 10 February 2010

[quote user="Darren Mitchell"]

TMW - ouch! Hit a nerve? Firstly, isn't it the point that the PM Company that you do work for is a client, just like any other and you should be 'actually dealing with that client as a client', not worrying who he does works for? Secondly, in the majority of cases, not all, \(I am assuming you are being sarcy) the industry is in the shape it is in and does not look too bright for future generations, due to poor company management and direction. I include PM companies in this as well. But not due to PM companies catering for client's needs that are not being met by printers themselves. It is an argument that you can't win, if there was not a gap in the market then PM companies would not be in existence.

[/quote] 

Jesus even when i agree with a PM company i am in the wrong......lol

The fact that something exists does not mean that there is a gap in the market for it. An industry does not normally become so distorted due to individual company's management being poor, unless an industry consists of just one or two companies, so i presume you are saying quite a majority of print company's are so poorly run that they affect the industry as a whole and the vast majority were not meeting the clients needs.

Personally i think there is a need for print management within printing companys, I think they should band together in the interests of being more efficient and offering better prices and services to its PM clients.......I.E. all the printers tell the PM company's what the price is and when they will be paid and for this service demand the PM company pays 3%  extra on the total order value to use their presses. I think there is a gap in the market

Mike Prior - 10 February 2010

Yes Darrel, and we were all in long term work and companies were not going pop all around us.

Ian German - 10 February 2010

I got an email entitled The Mighty Wind Breaking News.

Glad I have the sound off!

When all printers are a distant memory PM's will go into Pizza Management, pitching Pizza Hut against Domino's to see who can do a pizza for just the price of the cheese, then charge the real customer a 15% premium for getting it there in under 10 minutes.

Course, it won't be fully cooked .... but never mind that there's always Plumbing Management, Pr*stitution Management, etc. - the possibilities are endless.

The Mighty Wind - 10 February 2010

[quote user="Darren Mitchell"]TMW - ouch! Hit a nerve? Firstly, isn't it the point that the PM Company that you do work for is a client, just like any other and you should be 'actually dealing with that client as a client', not worrying who he does works for?[/quote]

No that is not the point at all, i was merely pointing out a conundrum..........I am crap at customer service cos I am a printer and a bit of a luddite according to PM. However the PM needs my services to fulfil his order, so he becomes my client and presumably my service has improved.............or has the price dropped?

The Mighty Wind - 10 February 2010

[quote user="Ian German"]I got an email entitled The Mighty Wind Breaking News.

Glad I have the sound off![/quote] 

lol

The Mighty Wind - 10 February 2010

[quote user="Mike Prior"]

Yes Darrel, and we were all in long term work and companies were not going pop all around us.

[/quote] 

Yep...........I will even forgive you being a PM for that

Darren Mitchell - 10 February 2010

TMW - The fact that something exists - long term - does mean that there is a gap in the market or it would cease to exist, no gap, no business. Yes, I am saying that a great many print companies are poorly managed. It is not just poor market conditions forcing so many pre-packs and liquidations; it is in part down to poor management, not having the right man in the right position. Apart from being in the industry for a while, a great many sales directors do not have any actual management or directorship education / training or experience. I have seen & heard time and time again, these people are in these positions he has good figures and one way of keeping him was to promote and try to golden hand-cuff him, not because he can direct a company or manage staff. As for the printers telling the PM companies what the price is - they do, that is what a quote is. If the PM then asks for it for less and you cannot afford to do it for that, it simply harks back to miss-management. Also why on earth would you charge a PM 3% extra for the use of your presses? The point is that they are a client just as any other, are you proposing to up your prices by 3% across the board? Or are you suggesting that you actually drop your prices to PM companies by 3% just to win their work, if so can I put some work with you!!

Try finding fair PM companies to work with who win their work due to knowing their clients & giving them great service, not just the ones that win work on price. Some of us still hold integrity high on our list of trading traits.

Darren Mitchell - 10 February 2010

TMW - so he becomes my client and presumably my service has improved.............or has the price dropped?

I cannot for the life of me understand why you feel your service should improve just because you are catering for a PM, surely your service should be exemplary whomever you deal with. I also feel, that in part, you are suggesting that all the direct clients that you quote for and do work for are a little naive! Surely you give the best price you can to whoever you work for, direct or PM. You are suggesting that just because you are working with a PM that your price has dropped. At the end the day, you don't want the work at the price being asked for, don't do it. It will only come back to bite you in the ar5e in the future.

mark smith - 10 February 2010

Print Management has a place as long as it is viewed as 'filler' work.

Using the 'ready to print' work from PM companys to fill an whole on press on Tuesday afternoon is fine, upto 10-15% of t/o, but businesses who get used to filling the press on the low margin PM work are asking for trouble.

PM companies have done alot for improving print quality and consistency...but don't build your business round it!

The Mighty Wind - 10 February 2010

[quote user="Darren Mitchell"]As for the printers telling the PM companies what the price is - they do, that is what a quote is[/quote] 

for a moment I wondered if you were actually in the PM business then.....................I read this

"If the PM then asks for it for less and you cannot afford to do it for that, it simply harks back to miss-management."

so obviously you do work in the PM market............after reading this

"Try finding fair PM companies to work with who win their work due to

knowing their clients & giving them great service, not just the

ones that win work on price. "

I nearly started crying and could not work out whether it was through laughing or sadness.....then I read this

"Some of us still hold integrity high on our list of trading traits. "

and remembered all the joy in the world...........long live customer centric PM fighting the good fight, god I think I can hear the national anthym

The Mighty Wind - 10 February 2010

[quote user="Darren Mitchell"]

TMW - so he becomes my client and presumably my service has improved.............or has the price dropped?

I cannot for the life of me understand why you feel your service should improve just because you are catering for a PM, surely your service should be exemplary whomever you deal with. I also feel, that in part, you are suggesting that all the direct clients that you quote for and do work for are a little naive! Surely you give the best price you can to whoever you work for, direct or PM. You are suggesting that just because you are working with a PM that your price has dropped. At the end the day, you don't want the work at the price being asked for, don't do it. It will only come back to bite you in the ar5e in the future.

[/quote] 

PM in part condemns the print trade as being bad at service and crap with clients............wins an order and uses the same trade to fulfil it. Of course they probably use the good parts of the trade utilising their experience and wot not

The Mighty Wind - 10 February 2010

[quote user="mark smith"]

Print Management has a place as long as it is viewed as 'filler' work.

Using the 'ready to print' work from PM companys to fill an whole on press on Tuesday afternoon is fine, upto 10-15% of t/o, but businesses who get used to filling the press on the low margin PM work are asking for trouble.

PM companies have done alot for improving print quality and consistency...but don't build your business round it!

[/quote] 

Yes it does and historically has but in todays market it has resulted in low pricing as you point out, so what happens if that market grows and grows? After all they do not market it to the client as an added value service but rather as a means of paying less. If they get too big, then they skew the market more and more to low prices

Darren Mitchell - 10 February 2010

TMW - Glad to have given you some national pride. The fact that you are being so very sarcastic and negative about this only goes to strengthen the fact that you are amoungst those in our industry that feels integrity and passion are traits only for other market sectors.

Perhaps if we as an industry did try to show a little more integrity / service / client knowledge, our industry would not be in the position it is in today. I am not in the slightest embarrassed at holding these old traits close to my companies ideology and hope that it may rub off on others that I work with.

As a PM company we do in no way condemn our industry at being bad with clients and giving crap service – as you suggest. But me thinks you protest too much! We only get work due to the failings of other PM companies and printers, so we must be something right. And yes in answer to your question, "we do only use the good parts of the trade utilising our experience and wot not....."

Stanley Dingtype - 10 February 2010

Doesn't it depend on whether the Print Manager in question is selling on price alone, many don't, many sell on service, and the ability to source best fit, and manage a huge range of product (not just print either) that any one printer cannot.

Problem is there is a huge difference between the best and the worst of PM, unfortunately all seem to be getting dumped in at the 'worse' end. The bad end ought to be referred to as farmers and brokers (like they used to) and burned at the stake - but the good ones, who know what they are doing can save printers both money and hassle.

Stanley Dingtype - 10 February 2010

"many don't, many sell on service"

okay, granted, possibly delete 'many' and replace with 'some'

Oddly some of the better ones now try to call themselves 'consultants', problem with that being that the word 'consultant' has become similarly tainted over recent years.

Quack

The Mighty Wind - 10 February 2010

 Darren

You are free to read between the lines of anything I write and draw any conclusions you wish and I knew you would only utilise the best.

The Mighty Wind - 10 February 2010

[quote user="Darren Mitchell"]TMW - Glad to have given you some national pride[/quote] 

That depends if you hearing the same anthym I am

Bryn Oakley - 10 February 2010

Oh Darren, This is getting boring. You seem to be of the younger generation, knowledgeable but fickle. You cannot see when someone like TMW is winding \(excuse the pun) you up.

The point is you are keen, believing you do everything right for the customer, \(so do we all by the way) yet you have more knowledge than the rest of us who mismanage our businesses because we don't put in the \(quote) 'best possible price'. That is simply NOT what selling is about, and nearly every PM person I know agrees with your view. The problem is, you quite happily quote against printers who have the machinery and knowledge to do the job, but because you have overly leant on another printer to get a better price, which you then skilfully add a margin to, so you put in a keener price than the encumbant printer. This doesn't make you a better supplier, nor does it make the encumbant printer mismanaged because they were trying to retain a job at a reasonable margin.\(ie correctly managing their business).

The whole point \(whether you include yourself in this or not, is up to you) but in the main, PM's are competing for work, the same as the rest of us, you don't go out and totally create new work. Therefore it carries some responsibility that you are driving prices down generally. also your suppliers are having to quote even keener as they would not get your work, so instead of making a reasonable return, they now have to produce twice as much to stay in the same place so they can pay their unchanged overheads. Therefore it is not mis-management overall, but them trying to make ends meet, and filling up holes in their production with PM work. The holes having been caused by other PM's taking their original work.

That doesn't mean that PM's have created gap in the marketplace, more that they have driven in their own wedge, to make a profit as a broker.

I know this as I have been on both sides.

It is a pity that CW Print \(who this is all about) have fallen. It is imperative for printers and PM's alike to realise that the prices PM's get or demand from their print supplier can only be a certain percentage of the overall work that printer does; otherwise he will fail, as the margins are not sustainable if it passes the citical percentage. In other words Darren, if there were no printers going direct to clients, you would not have any suppliers, or ALL the prices would go up so that the printers could stay afloat.

Next time someone like TMW goves you a compliment, it may be worth recognising it instead of getting on your soap-box and shouting back. Now look what you have done \(says he climbing down and putting his own soap-box away).

See it is good to admit your failings yet still be keen, but please do not be naive.

Edna Bag - 10 February 2010

Can I add my 2p's worth

There are good and bad things about both sides of this arguement (discussion).

Mark comment about ''filler'' work is fine in a buoyant market and the printer wants pocket money, this hasn't existed for years, maybe as far back as the eighties when printers ran double days and used a third shift for bunce cash (or that was the theory).

A lot of printers now like the idea of filling 24 hours but don't and find themselves selling to fill something.

Yes printers were crap at client care, but this gap between good and bad has been improved dramatically, for a lot of businesses there is a definate can do/will help mentallity, so I don't see the difference between PM and Printer being that different, except for knowledge, which some of the larger PM's let slide in the move to milk and makes more dosh. MIS has played a large part in this and once again the larger PM's used technology to enable clients to make ''idiot proof'' enquiries and water down the amount of available on site knowledge they should have been supplying. Bit of a experience to trolley dolly shift.

In its way this probably meant that printers had to step up to the plate and add something they had not previously done, be helpful and forthcoming with information in a sensible time. (historically speaking).

The debate on printers being able to cut back on salesmen may in part be true, as the PM's brought the business to the printer and dealt internally. The fact that printers were now able to pick up on accounts not previously possible seems to be widely ignored. As to whether they would ever have got in the door is something else. Its easy to think it once the work is there, but would they have got it in the first place?

The biggest thing that PM has in its favour, like it or not is the simple fact no one printer is good at everything. If they say they are its a lie. Printers may have taken on work as a 'yes we can policy' and farmed it at a premium, so you could say printers themselves have print managed, so now what makes them any different, apart from the focus they gave to the activity and they missed the trick.

PM exists because its a simple fix to someones elses unwanted problem, marketing people don't want to or shouldn't have too become technical wonders to do something that is not what they do. Its non core, don't always make money and is seen a necessary evil. If you don't order you don't want to pay for it, for many its better to use a PM to handle something they don't know and hopefully the costs balance, they don't pay salary, NI, Pension or anything else the staff they trust to handle ''thier'' businesss are seen the same way as a computer or desk. They don't worry about sick cover, hoiolidays, maternity its someone elses issue.

So now we are talking Value Added, in theory a PM takes an enquiry and rather than throw it at an out of fit supplier, places it in the right place, even if fees are added, the theory is the client will still be better off, have someone to handle it for the duration of the job and not have to phone or find suppiers and then waste time running the job, when they should be doing summat else.

Yes, PM's need printers, for some printers they would not be in business without the PM's. Maybe this is what has been lost sight of apart from the fact, PM exists at many levels and the ones who got it a bad name and raped all are now in dire straits. The larger PM's have done a lot of damage, no doubt they forgot who actually gave them existence and bit the hand that feeds them, there are a lot of smaller PM's doing the right thing by all, don't lose sight of that.   

Bryn Oakley - 10 February 2010

You are completely correct in all you say Edna. In fact many of the PM companies have their roots in the Brokerage market for computer stationery of the last 30 years or so. With the massive reduction in that marketplace many brokers turned to any other work they could get their hands on - inevitably colour work that some other printer was previously doing.

Back then, Brokers were supplied by trustworthy genuinely 'trade-only' suppliers. The Brokers buying price was dictated by the trade producer, the Broker adding a margin, sold it on, usually cheaper than those printers who had chosen the direct to market route.

Unfortunately, these hungry brokers either went into production \(like me) or worked on getting other work. Now because there were no \(or extremely few) 'trade only' sheet-fed printers, these early years were difficult. with printers unwilling to sell at a 'trade' price. However as with all things, a way can be found, often using added-value products. It was often the bullish brokers who made very little margin that started the wedge. Gradually the wedge was widened as the printers realised they were getting work previously unavailable to them as Edna says.

The skill of the do-everything seller is an important factor as to why PM's got the biggest and best clients.

Now it is too late, printers that do trade only work cannot dictate the price as they did with computer stationery market \(which allowed a good margin for the broker), as there is always one of the existing band of printers who would undercut that.Hence a downward price-driven spiral for all who sell only on price.

What would resolve this \(but it ain't gonna happen) is if the printers jumped into one camp or the other. Either 'direct selling' or'trade only and PM selling'. The 'trade-only' brigade would have very little sales overhead, and thus a difference in selling price to the 'direct boys and girls' would allow the PM.s the margin they are looking for. That is until some greedy so-and-so wants a foot in both camps!

The Mighty Wind - 10 February 2010

Darren

Bryn is correct i was just winding you up.........and I am a little bit sorry, its just there has not been a good PM bashing on here for a while. The rest of his post is pretty on the button too, but it differs in every sector and has a different impact.

Edna Bag - 10 February 2010

TMW you are so naughty spreading bad Karma, you need a good spanking!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Mighty Wind - 10 February 2010

[quote user="Edna Bag"]

TMW you are so naughty spreading bad Karma, you need a good spanking!!!!!!!!!!!!

[/quote] 

yeah well...............in my defence I was bored and it added value to my day.

Bryn Oakley - 10 February 2010

Hey TMW, REALLY love your sense of humour, it makes my day. Go on Edna, give him a spanking, liven the place up a bit!

Mick Hart - 10 February 2010

I just spent the last hour and a half composing an excellent piece on the merits of PM and the effect of public sector tendering, (in between playing litter-basket ball, and drinking coffee) - if it was only a wind up I wont bother. Might as well post it on the BBC news site instead! Go for it Edna, he deserves it!

Ivor Binder - 10 February 2010

Well I've tried enquiring as to taking over with a freind of mine and now after 5 phone calls going unreturned have decided to say ah well. It does seem that I'm not in 'the club' so don't qualify!

£4m turnover expected and a ratio to staff of £100,000 per employee, that sounds like it should be easily sustainable but if the number cruchers can't hit a keypad on a phone, no wonder we're all going to hell in a handcart!

xxx

Phil Ludgate - 15 February 2010

I do work for a PM and make quite a good margin on some of the work, not all of it, it's a balancing act. Funny thing is the work I make a good margin on is usually the result of some poor pricing structures of other printers who are almost certainly not using much in the way of an MIS

TMW, agree with Bryn, really love your sense of humour especially the Jedi Knight gag!